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I been trying to track down dead b and e issue. I tried a new nut design. Is this too wide? Too much contact with string???

The strings need to break downward from the fret side edge of the nut, creating a break to the tuners. Usually, a nut is arched in a shape that lends itself to this, putting contact at the fret side edge and less on the tuner side. The picture you have looks like it might not be achieving this.

Yep and looks like both E strings are too close to the edge of the finger board.

I agree it looks like the 1st & 6th strings are to close to the fingerboard edge, and from the fingerboard side of the nut the strings need to follow the angle of the downturned peg head.
It looks like most of them do that will the possible exception of the 5th & 6th strings.

The first issue is about playability and the second string buzz. I think neither would cause the problem you are having.

The first thing I would do is put on a new set of strings. If that doesn't fix it I would start by checking intonation.

Also, I doubt a fat nut would have anything to do with it. Unless I suppose it could if it is a very soft material (unlikely).

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Joe Beaver
Maker of Sawdust

Hell no!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

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George :-)

OK good effort and here is what I would do differently.

There are some things that pros look for in a great nut and here's what they are.

1) Does the shape and form compliment the instrument. More specifically is the nut minimalistic but appropriate for the instrument keeping in mind if the instrument is contemporary, vintage, what ever. We want the look to seamlessly let the eye address the instrument as a whole and not be drawn to the nut.

2) Are the nut sides flush with the neck sides AND remain flush following the shape of the fret board, headstock etc. This is why some makers finish the instrument with the nut installed first for that seamless look AND feel to the hand.

3) Is there excess material that could be removed. In our classes we teach our students to sacrifice a set of string in the nut making process. More specifically with a BAF (big arse file) we would once the nut slots are cut near final depth file all nut top material down until the file is hitting the strings. A bit scary until you do it and realize that it's very controlled and safe. This removes the excess top material and shapes the nut top to the break angle of the strings. Again this is done after the nut slots are cut to near final depth.

4) String spacing and yes yours are too close to the edge of the fret board. Any degree of fret end bevel and the strings are going to be coming off the neck. If you have Martin or Taylor guitar there go to school on the two outer E spacings in terms of how Martin or Taylor do it. Of course special considerations can change string spacing but most folks would be very OK with the spacing on either brand's nuts.

5) Nut slots and I know you had some trouble with this before so feel free to call me to discuss too during business hours, 734 332-6142. Slots would be approx. half the headstock set back angle from the fret plane. If the slot is too flat that's where that Ravi Cankersore sitar sound comes from. Slots should not have a hump in the middle either as mentioned above.

6) A really good nut will have an eloquent, complementary look to the instrument. It will be completely scratchless and so highly polished that a Master Jeweler may believe until he checks it out further that it's plastic. True story by the way. Micro mesh can give this highly polished look or use what we use a dedicated nut buffer..... no jokes please...

7) The nut slots themselves should have enough surface contact with the string that the strings are not riding on such a small area of bone that the nut wears prematurely. If you look at present day G*bson nuts this is what I am talking about. The contact point on the nut is so very minimal that the nut wears in no time.

Nut making can be an art and it can take any of us many, many nuts before we even start to see what others with more experience look for in a great nut so don't feel bad Mike.

I was in the same boat when I asked a local Luthier to put together a set-up class for me. That was 10 years ago now..... and hundreds of nuts later.

The best advice that I can give you is to find a good example such as a Taylor or Martin nut and go to school on it.

Mike I haven't had time to repost my nut making toot from some years ago but I would be happy to email you the toot and pics if you want to PM me an email addy. I'm here, in the city shop late tonight so it might be tomorrow morning before I can find it and send it but I would be happy to do so.

Oh no you di-int!

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Mike Buddy I posted the nut making toot in the toots section and hope that it might be helpful to you.

Thanks for the nut making toot, Hesh!
One question I have is why the nut slot width should be close to the string diameter?
Since the bottom of the slot is round, it seems like a generous slot width would not cause problems and it would minimize chances for the string to bind.
How much wider can the slot width be and keep the strings where they need to be?
Thanks,
Dan

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You are very welcome Dan!

Good question!

When we write these toots we have to as much as we can on our own vet what we provide against every possibility that we can think of of what folks might do. More specifically is the information provided is 1) safe.... and 2) accurate.... and three somehow useful to folks regardless of what previously held misconceptions that may be commonly out here...

The operative in your question to me is "since the bottom of the slot is round...."

Be advised my friend that not everyone makes nut slots with round bottoms. Some people may cut V shaped slots and or use something like an xacto needle file.

With this in mind true if the slot bottom is round the string is less likely to migrate or shimmy sideways in the slot. We don't want this to happen because both terminal points of the "speaking length" of the string are pretty important to intonation and the ability to easily and accurately tune the instrument. We certainly don't want a nut slot to bind ever or tuning stability is negatively impacted when a string binds and then suddenly lets loose. We often see this visually represented when your tuners seemingly jump one way or the other going past our desired pitch.

If strings can move much sideways too it can impact string spacing as well leading to inconstant playability for some folks.

If the slot bottom is truly round, or close if it was over sized enough the string can shimmy too however if the slot width is close to string width the string has no where to shimmy sideways to.

Now back to V shaped slots. F*ctories do lots of things, some good, some not so much. Although rare these days some factories are still cutting V shaped slots. V shaped slots commonly bind because the string if you draw this out may not be seated all the way in the slot but instead "pinched" by the V shape. That can and does bind.

A V shaped slot also provides less bearing surface for the string since the two contact points are straight lines and the string is round.

On the other hand a round bottomed slot a couple thou over sized for the string has perhaps as much as a third of the strings outer diameter bearing on the round bottomed slot. Less wear less quickly and no binding that V shaped slots are known to do.

As you can see we are fans of cutting round bottomed slots and when you are also keen to cut the nut slots as low as practicable and possible with no buzzing we can't have binding strings or string bearing on so very little nut surface that they quickly wear the contact points and drop lower..... which can be too low.

Round bottomed slots are superior IME to tuning stability, less or no binding, and the stability of the final set-up adjustments over time with less nut wear less quickly because of increased contact/bearing surface with the string.

Conversely V shaped slots bind, they suck because of this binding in terms of tuning stability, and the minimal bearing surface wears faster changing the slot depth preventing us from cutting the slots as low as we would wish for player comfort unless we turn a blind eye to the idea that the setting of our depth will change quickly over time.

Make sense?

Thanks for the toot, Hesh! Read it this morning, and I'll likely read it several more times before I try to shape a nut. I'll probably try it out making a new nut for my Tank-amin first!

Alex

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"Indecision is the key to flexibility" .... Bumper sticker

Tank-amin LOL!!!

Alex we will me making nuts in class this way but don't let my toot scare you. I have a way of taking something that Dave can do in 20 minutes and writing War and Peace over it.....

Most of all though it all becomes second nature once you know what to look for in terms of what the definition of success is.

Thanks Hesh!
I really appreciate the time you spend sharing your knowledge.
Thanks,
Dan

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